Archbishop Bruce Simpson joins us this week from the Benedictine Order of St. John the Beloved, an Old Catholic Church that stands out in its welcoming of people from all backgrounds regardless of race, sexual orientation or marital status.Archbishop Bruce Simpson joins us this week from the Benedictine Order of St. John the Beloved, an Old Catholic Church that stands out in its welcoming of people from all backgrounds regardless of race, sexual orientation or marital status. Archbishop Simpson is an openly gay Catholic Priest who rejects fundamentalist Christian arguments that homosexuality is inherently sinful. His life story, which can be read in his new book The Gay Face of God, is truly fascinating; his career path has lead him from the United States military to the police force, then to time as a federal agent. After being rejected by the Roman Catholic Church on account of his sexual orientation, Archbishop Simpson found his final calling with the Old Catholic Church, where his primary ministry is Social Justice; Archbishop Simpson’s teachings denounce the use of God as “a political weapon,” and instead promote “the simple truth of love and inclusion.” He has appeared before on YNOT Radio to speak with YNOTBob and LAJ, and many adult industry professionals have found his inclusive approach to Christianity to be a refreshing change from the Right Wing evangelicals and fundamentalists who commonly attack the adult entertainment industry. YNOT’s Connor Young spoke with Archbishop Simpson:

CY: Archbishop Simpson, I’d like to thank you for taking the time, despite your busy schedule, to talk with us today. I’d like to talk with you both about your Church, the Old Catholic Church, which is a fascinating alternative for Catholics to the more restrictive Roman Catholic church, and also about you yourself, including your new book, “The Gay Face of God,” and the recent federal lawsuit that you have launched against a pair of individuals that you have accused of anti-gay harassment, including death threats. So there’s much to talk about, and I thank you for consenting to this interview.

AS: Thank you Connor for talking with me today and giving me another opportunity to reach out to people.

CY: For those who missed your YNOT Radio interview a while back, can you briefly explain how the Old Catholic Church differs from the Roman Catholic Church? Also, how does the Old Catholic Church compare to the various Protestant churches?

AS: I’ll answer your second question first. The Old Catholic Church is Catholic, and as such is a liturgical based church. This is the difference between the Old Catholic Church and Protestant Churches. As for the Roman Church; we were part of the Roman Catholic Church until 1870, during which time Vatican I occurred, and the doctrine of Papal Infallibility was promulgated. This was kind of the “last straw” for the Bishops of the Netherlands, Germany, and a few other countries, and they finally declared their independence in 1879 through a document called the Declaration of Utrecht. This all took place on a much older historical event: The Holy Roman Emperor Conrad II and Bishop Heribert of Utrecht requested of Pope Eugene III in 1145 A.D. that the see of Utrecht Holland be granted the right to elect successors (Bishops) in times of vacancy and it was granted by papal decree. The privileges agreed upon were later approved by the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 and the autonomous character of the Catholic Church in the Netherlands was further reinforced by a second papal decree from Pope Leo X which conceded that Philip of Burgundy would nor neither his successors, clergy or laity ever have this cause revoked by a tribunal or under pretense from any apostolic letters and that all proceedings should be null and void if ever constituted. Successor Popes have violated this irrevocable right anyway.

CY: How did you first get involved with the Old Catholic Church, and can you talk a little about what it took to be appointed Archbishop?

AS: During a rather intense meeting with James Cardinal Hickey, Archbishop of Washington, D.C. in 1985 in the Seminary where I was enrolled in studies to become a Roman Catholic Priest, the fact that I am gay was revealed. After discussions with the Archbishop, I decided that rather then agree to his demands in order for me to continue in the Seminary, I would resign. Eventually I discovered the Old Catholic Church and investigated it to make sure that it was legitimate. I applied with the Church to finish my studies and was ordained a Priest. In 1999, I was asked to become a Bishop by other Bishops and I agreed and was consecrated in January of that year. When I assumed responsibility for the Benedictine Order of St. John the Beloved, I became an Archbishop by the hands of four other Archbishops of the Church. The difference between a Bishop and an Archbishop is merely the administrative burden placed on a Bishop for the governance of a large Diocese or a particular religious Order; that, and a couple of colors change when it comes to liturgical garments for the rank of Archbishop.

CY: Who was St. John the Beloved and why was he declared a Saint?

AS: St. John the Beloved was one of the Apostles and as such, all Apostles are Saints. St. John is called “The disciple that Jesus so loved.” There existed a special relationship between Jesus and St. John as indicated in Scripture in several places in addition to the depiction of the Last Supper by Michelangelo whereby John is pictured resting his head on the chest of Jesus at table. I believe this uniqueness centers around the fact that John was but a teen and probably became as much a son to Jesus as a Disciple. St. John is the only Apostle to have died of old age and is the author of the 4th Gospel, although some dispute that. Some also attribute a sexual element to the relationship between Jesus and John, a notion that I reject as having no evidence at all to support such a claim. I added the name of “St. John the Beloved” to the Order’s official name in honor of the Apostle who never denied Christ.

CY: I’m often frustrated by what I see as hypocritical behavior on the part of many Christians in America. The message of Jesus Christ always seemed to me to be one of inclusion, love and forgiveness. Yet you’d hardly know that if you spent all of your time listening to men like Jerry Falwell and Jimmy Swaggart, the latter who seems to have resurfaced recently. Why do you think more Americans fail to question the teachings of these men even though their teachings often seem contrary to those of Jesus Christ himself?

AS: It is a fact in America that many, many Christians check their brains at the church door when they go in on Saturday or Sunday to worship. They sit there in the pews and listen to the garbage that is thrown at them by preachers who have forgotten the fundamental basis of Christianity: Love. Jesus in the name of love gave his life for all of humankind and not just for those who pious preachers believe fit the definition of what is holy and righteous. These men and women who are happy to have a target to vent their anger and unholy venom at are really no better then the Nazi’s were. They need a scapegoat to direct their hate at, and in order to have a feeling of superiority over others. In the Nazi case, it was the Jew, the Communist, Slavs, and homosexuals. In some backwoods churches you will find these same targets of the preacher being held up for contempt and condemnation; all in the name of Jesus. I have no doubt whatsoever that if Jesus came back today, he would drive these false preachers from any house attributed to his Father at the end of a whip. Men like Swaggart and Falwell are idolaters in that they really worship the almighty dollar, so that they can have air conditioned dog houses and five new cars in the garage. This is not of Christ; it is of man’s greed.

CY: But your Church has a different message. In fact, one of the primary messages on your website is that everyone, regardless of sexual orientation, race, marital status or gender, is welcome at your Church. You are also open to members of the adult entertainment community. Would it be fair to say that this stance is a little controversial for a Catholic Church?

AS: Yes, our stance is rather unknown in the world today in Christian churches, not just Catholic Churches. Again, we go to men and women deciding who is holy enough and who is not to attend Church and receive communion, if that is the tradition of their church. In Chicago, we had Cardinal George refusing the Body of Christ to those gay members who self-identified as gay. The body of Christ was held hostage by a pretentious, pompous, egotistical Bishop of the Roman Catholic Church. Can anyone see Jesus withholding that which he commanded at the Last Supper to anyone? Did he not break bread with tax collectors, prostitutes, politicians? Did he not visit and love the leapers? Cardinal George is in for a very rude awakening when he meets God face to face. We believe our message of inclusion is the message of Jesus, the God we serve.

CY: Have you ever read the infamous “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” sermon, and what do you think about the “hellfire” approach to ministry?

AS: Yes, I have read that particular sermon, and it was very apropos for its time, and that type of sermon is still in use today. The “hellfire” approach to God is one of fear; fear of God, fear of His judgment, and just plain ole fear. I have said before that I feel fear, fire and brimstone is the God of the Old Testament, but that love and forgiveness is the God of the New Testament. Jesus came to set man free from the Mosaic laws and to bring forth a new commandment which He declared was the greatest commandment of all: To love one another as you love the Lord our God. You do good because you want to, not because you are afraid of the bogyman. If you accept the God of the New Testament then you follow the path of love.

CY: Falwell recently said that evangelical Christians are now in control of the Republican Party. Do you agree with that statement? Is that party at the mercy of protestant evangelical Christians?

AS: Ahh, Falwell, that giant of spiritual purity. Yes, this is the man who blamed the World Trade Center disaster on the gay community, along with many others, and by inference, the adult entertainment community. God help me, because I never thought I would say this, but I do agree with him: The GOP is in the control of right-wing extremists of both the religious and non-religious type. It is not just Protestant rightists, but religious rightists in general, i.e. the Roman Catholic Church. We have gone from a country that feared electing a President because he might take orders from the Pope, to one who went to the Pope, hat in hand, requesting the Pope help him get elected for the first time. Incredible. Never before has there been such a contrast between the two main political parties. The GOP is the party of the uber-wealthy, hate, division, war, world domination, mindless diplomatic relations with the civilized world, constitutional erosion, big business and all of its corrupt parts, i.e. Halliburton and Iraq and the Vice-President. The Democrats are the party of the poor and middle class, responsible military use, health care, equality, jobs, and freedom FROM religion.

CY: I take it you heard recent comments from Jimmy Swaggart, who said that if a man ever looked at him romantically he’d kill him and then tell God he died. He claimed afterwards that the comments were meant as a joke. What was your reaction to Swaggart’s comment, and why do you think he still manages to find followers in America?

AS: First off, no sane gay man would look twice at that bag of saggy bones, let alone hit on him. I assume it must be a fantasy of Swaggart’s and that he is tired of Prostitutes. I don’t believe for one nano-second that it was a joke. Swaggart was in the heat of passion thumping his bible when those statements came out. They came from his inner-core beliefs and feelings. His Christian violence surfaced just long enough to rear its ugly head and show the world what truly lies beneath that sanctimonious exterior. Swaggart is a hypocrite of the first order and a visible disgrace to the name of Jesus. He shall be held responsible for the first death of a gay man wherein the motive lies with his statements. He draws followers, although not as many as he did before his famous banal “I have sinned” speech. He is a fundamentalist preacher with a lack of ethics that preaches that good ole Gospel hate that is the favorite version of “God fearing” people everywhere. These people are fundamentalists. They believe that a stenographer took down every word in the bible, (which translation remains a mystery) and therefore they must believe every word.

CY: Maybe you can help me settle a debate. Was Jesus a liberal, and would he vote for George W. Bush? (laughs)

AS: Jesus was a liberal in some things and a conservative in other things. He performed miracles on the Sabbath but drove the money changers out of His Father’s temple. Jesus can’t be put into any neat category; after all, he was fully human and fully God. Would he vote for Bush? No, Bush stands for everything Jesus doesn’t.

CY: How important is this upcoming presidential election? Does it really matter which candidate wins?

AS: I believe the very soul of the nation hangs in the balance of this next election. We the American people have an opportunity to correct what the Supreme Court wrought upon this once great land. We will either vote to continue the decline of America into the abyss of world bully and sociopath, or we will recover our self-respect and resume our place as leader of the free world.

CY: You’ve had brief contact with the Saudi Royal Family before. Have you seen Michael Moore’s movie Fahrenheit 9/11, and if so, do you think his concerns about the Bush family’s relationship with the Saudis are valid?

AS: I am convinced that Moore hit the nail on the head with the Bush/Saud connection. Our interest lies only in the oil reserves of that desert nation and not with its politics on the world stage. I personally found the Saudi Royals that I came in close contact with to be reprehensible for the most part, and capable of anything. The financial interests of the two families have outweighed all other considerations.

CY: It sure seems like these are divisive times in America. Passions are high. Will America ever accept same-sex marriages, or is the desire to hate just too strong?

AS: Same-sex marriage will be a universal reality. The only question is how long will it take. Part of the answer lies with this coming election as to who will shape the Supreme Court for the next 25 years. We the people cannot afford to have any more Justices like Anton Scalia appointed to the Court. Scalia is nothing more then a right-wing fascist in a black robe who would look quite comfortable with a swastika arm band. Never before in recent history has the democracy of this nation been so at risk. The Executive branch of the government, in conjunction with the Legislative branch, is trying to diminish the role of the third branch of the government, the Judiciary. All three branches are equally important in ensuring the continuing freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States. The Church and the Government to a very large extent are responsible for the amount of hate and division in this country.

CY: You recently launched a federal lawsuit against a couple of individuals who you have charged with anti-gay harassment and even death threats. Can you talk about the lawsuit at all? What happened that convinced you to take legal action?

AS: John Parnell of Texas and Montgomery Griffith-Mair of Arkansas, together and separately, have launched a campaign of libel, slander, terroristic threats, and invasion of privacy in an attempt to silence me and to prevent me from carrying out the ministry of this Order. I have been accused by these two of having sex with boys, running the Gay Mafia, and perhaps two dozen other crimes and charges. Without exception, everything they have alleged on the internet is false and libelous. When one of them phoned in a phony complaint to the Office of the Inspector General of the U.S. Treasury where I once worked, alleging that I used my “many Federal law enforcement contacts to harass conservative non-gay clergy and churches,” I had had enough. On top of that, the Treasury has wasted now four months investigating this nonsense. Why? When one is accused publicly and in writing of having sex with minors, you have no choice but to either break the accuser’s neck, or take them to court. I’m trying Court first, and since I was unable to find an Attorney to assist me in this Federal Case, I am going at it Pro Se.

CY: Why do so many Christians believe homosexuality is a sin?

AS: Once again, fundamentalism. They believe what the preachers have been telling them for 800 years. It was in fact, not until the year 1200, that the stories of Sodom and her sister city had any mention of homosexuality in the Scriptures. During that time period new translations shifted the great sin away from what it was, inhospitality, to one of sex and homosexuality. As I have said, people check their brains at the church door. They forget for example that the Angels were sent to destroy the cites before they ever entered them. But to read the current renditions of the story, it was mainly that the crowd wanted to rape the Angels while they were in Lot’s house. Also, no one ever questions why Lot would offer up his two daughters to a mob of screaming horny homosexuals bent on raping the male angels. I don’t know about gay men in the Middle East, but the ones I know would not be happy being offered a woman in the place of a man. It is utter nonsense.

CY: You have a book out titled The Gay Face of God. Can you tell us about the book? And what inspired you to write it?

AS: The Gay Face of God is my autobiography that was written due to the constant requests of newspaper reporters, friends, and many in the gay community. It takes the reader from the rape that brought me into this world, through my careers in the military, police, federal agent, body guard, court officer, U.S. Treasury Executive in Washington, to my final place in life: Archbishop. The title comes from Genesis wherein it is stated that man is made in the image of God. Well, if that is so, and I believe it to be so, then that image is male and female, white, black, brown, yellow, and also gay and straight. It is the “Gay Face of God” that no one ever talks about.

CY: As a fellow writer I am always impressed and a little envious when someone finishes and publishes a book. How long did it take you to write this book? Was it hard to stay focused and keep writing?

AS: Writing the book was difficult because it made me re-live experiences that were not always pleasant and it tended to break open some very old wounds. I wrote the book in six weeks, but it took months to refine the draft, and to have it go through editing. Even with that, some mistakes were still missed, and it could use another good edit. I wrote at night, basically between 10 P.M and 3 A.M., which for me is my most productive, creative time to write.

CY: I’m told your book includes an ancient reconstructed wedding Rite for same-sex couples. What’s the history behind this Rite, and how did you find it?

AS: Professor John Boswell of Yale University wrote three books on gays and the ancient world and it was he that discovered vestiges of the same-sex marriage Rite of the Roman Catholic Church that I used as a basis for further research. Based on Boswell, I put together the Rite once again, updated some of the language and eliminated some of the ancient symbols used during the Rite, i.e. holding crowns over both heads, and making the couple go around the Altar three times.

CY: What’s the best way for someone to buy a copy of your book?

AS: Anyone can order a copy of my book by going to the publisher’s website: http://www.3mpub.com/simpson If any of your readers would like an autographed copy, they should say so and that they are from YNOT and I will make sure a signed copy to them goes out. Some gay bookstores are also carrying the book as well.

CY: For those who are reading this interview and thinking, “Hey, this guy sounds pretty interesting. I want to learn more about his Church,” where can they get more information? How can they find an Old Catholic Church to attend? Should they expect to find a similar philosophy of inclusion at any Old Catholic Church, or is this a unique aspect of The Benedictine Order of St. John the Beloved?

AS: First off, one should visit our website, OSJTB.ORG, and read all about the church, the Order, and get a feel for the ministries of the Order. Social Justice is our number one ministry. I have also just launched a vocations drive as well for men and women, and anyone that feels called to serve God should contact me and we can talk about it. We are a non-celibate Church for the last couple hundred years (thank God), and one does not have to give up family or their day job. We need workers to help us with our ministry. The religious Right has been most effective at cutting off our funding sources so we have been unable to raise the three million dollars to build or buy our monastery. In fact, the very basic need of $700,000 has not even been close to being met, so we have more or less given up on the idea of trying to create a home for the Order to ensure its continued existence beyond the current members of the Order. Not all Old Catholic Churches are open and accepting. I am sorry to say that there are some that are just as right-wing as the most rabid ones. In fact, one of the individuals I am suing is the Archbishop of the Mexican National Catholic Church. So, one should inquire as to the position of an Old Catholic Church if one finds one that they might want to attend. The easiest way to find one is to use Google by using your location and the words Old Catholic Church.

CY: I want to express once more how grateful we are that you have stopped to talk with us today. You do your faith a tremendous service, and honestly I wish more Christians in America would stop to hear your message. Best of luck with all of your future endeavors, and we hope you will stop in and talk with us again someday.

AS: It has been my pleasure to visit with you and YNOT once again, and I hope your invitation will always be there. May God be with you.

Interview conducted by Connor Young. Comments concerning YNOT News stories can be sent to editor@ynotmasters.com, or public discussion of all YNOT News articles is available through the YNOT Masters message boards.